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MEDIUM-WATCH

The latest discussions on famous/not-so-famous mediums. If you want to warn people about a bad psychic or medium, do it here.
Likewise, share the good things and promote the good 'uns!



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Unread postPosted: Thu, 07 Aug 2008, 9:56 pm 
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yuk! why they using fake blood?or they saying its real blood? :shock: :?


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Unread postPosted: Thu, 07 Aug 2008, 10:00 pm 
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The wikipedia article is a good overview of psychic surgery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychic_surgery

Quote:
According to stage magician James Randi, psychic surgery is a sleight-of-hand confidence trick. He has said that in personal observations of the procedure, and in movies showing the procedures, he can spot sleight-of-hand moves that are evident to experienced stage magicians, but might deceive a casual observer. Randi has replicated the appearance of psychic surgery himself through the use of sleight-of-hand.[23] Professional magicians Milbourne Christopher and Robert Gurtler have also observed psychic surgeons at work, and claimed to have spotted the use of sleight-of-hand. On his A&E show Mindfreak in the episode "Sucker," illusionist Criss Angel performed "Psychic Surgery," showing first-hand how it may be done (fake blood, plastic bags and chicken livers were used).

In Randi's view, the healer would slightly roll or pinch the skin over the area to be treated. When his flattened hand reaches under the roll of skin, it looks and feels as if the practitioner is actually entering into the patient's body. The healer would have prepared in advance small pellets or bags of animal entrails which would be palmed in his hand or hidden beneath the table within easy reach. This organic matter would simulate the "diseased" tissue that the healer would claim to be removing. If the healer wants to simulate bleeding, he might squeeze a bladder of animal blood or an impregnated sponge.([1] [2] [3]) If done properly, this procedure may deceive patients and observers. However, some "psychic surgery" procedures do not rely solely on the "sleight of hand" described, as at least one Brazilian performer also cuts his victims' skin to heighten the illusion.[24]



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Unread postPosted: Thu, 07 Aug 2008, 10:02 pm 
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We've maybe already had this posted? I can't remember.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxMGxz6-oTs


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Unread postPosted: Thu, 07 Aug 2008, 10:28 pm 
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Gary's mentioned in the comments..

Google badpsychicsgarymannion to learn more about the lies and evasions of the young English "psychic surgeon Gary Mannion!
liquifyedroses (5 days ago) Show Hide 0 Marked as spam Reply | Spam

Gary doesnt do it that way though!

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Unread postPosted: Thu, 07 Aug 2008, 10:31 pm 
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defo someone from badpsychics or uksceptics good job you lot not judges in law,innocent til proved guilty remember!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Unread postPosted: Thu, 07 Aug 2008, 11:10 pm 
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Clip of Gary Mannion at St James's Church in Piccadilly (Part 1) - Part 2 to follow

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc9I667ozZI[/youtube]


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Unread postPosted: Thu, 07 Aug 2008, 11:12 pm 
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Part 2 says ' sorry, video is no longer available '


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kirsty wrote:
defo someone from badpsychics or uksceptics good job you lot not judges in law,innocent til proved guilty remember!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


True if you are charged for a crime. You aren't guilty until it is proven.

Similarly, absurd claims can't be accepted without any proof. If society operated that way we would be in real trouble.


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Unread postPosted: Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 1:01 am 
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gary looks nice.


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bwm,gary,where are you,when is the testing? :roll: you got to admire gary for going ahead with it farside many wouldnt


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Unread postPosted: Tue, 12 Aug 2008, 1:27 am 
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Oh dear Gary,time to have a reality check.

Lynda Jakiro was responsible for posting this on www.hertsdirect.org under "Spiritual and Faith Healing":

Quote:

Abraham Body Energy Healing is a non-invasive, natural, pain free and drug free method of healing, available for all ages, at the price of a donation.

Our team of specialists, trained by International Healer Gary Mannion, work on all levels; physical, emotional, mental, spiritual and many more.

If you make healing your first resort rather then your last, you could avoid drugs and invasive treatments.

Sometimes Gary Mannion is available for pyshic 9(sic) surgery treatments and demonstrations. We are here to help.

http://badpsychics.com/thefraudfiles/mo ... toryid=840



Go talk to your friend and tell her how dangerous that is! Thats the sort of crap that can stop people seeking medical help.You train these people and its your responsibility to keep an eye on what is going out to the public.


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very wrong that is,makes you think about the rest more now :roll:


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Unread postPosted: Tue, 12 Aug 2008, 6:22 pm 
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ros wrote:
bwm,gary,where are you,when is the testing? :roll: you got to admire gary for going ahead with it farside many wouldnt


Indeed, I await the results with interest.


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Unread postPosted: Tue, 12 Aug 2008, 7:02 pm 
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An Evening of Trance with Gary Mannion

Trance or Overshadowing as it is also known is a method where a medium will allow his or her spirit guides and helpers to communicate to an audience using the Mediums body as a tool. When this happens it allows the Spirit to bypass the mediums interpretation of what is being said and to answer any questions relating to a spiritual matter directly.

Tonight Gary will allow his Spirit Surgeon Abraham to use his body as a tool to achieve this.

The evening will consist of a short introduction about Gary and Abraham, how they work and how the Trance works.
Gary will then allow Abraham to occupy his body to speak to the audience directly and answer any questions the audience may have relating to a spiritual subject.

The night will conclude with the audience having the chance to ask Gary first hand any questions they have for him relating to the Trance and the way it works.

Spaces are limited and bookings must be made in advance!

Location: Samskara health, Beauty and Holistic Centre, 1 Manor Parade, Sheepcote road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 2JN
Date: 12th August 2008
Time: 7pm - 9:30pm
Price: £9


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Unread postPosted: Tue, 12 Aug 2008, 7:08 pm 
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Kitkat wrote:
Quote:
An Evening of Trance with Gary Mannion

Trance or Overshadowing as it is also known is a method where a medium will allow his or her spirit guides and helpers to communicate to an audience using the Mediums body as a tool. When this happens it allows the Spirit to bypass the mediums interpretation of what is being said and to answer any questions relating to a spiritual matter directly.

Tonight Gary will allow his Spirit Surgeon Abraham to use his body as a tool to achieve this.

The evening will consist of a short introduction about Gary and Abraham, how they work and how the Trance works.
Gary will then allow Abraham to occupy his body to speak to the audience directly and answer any questions the audience may have relating to a spiritual subject.

The night will conclude with the audience having the chance to ask Gary first hand any questions they have for him relating to the Trance and the way it works.

Spaces are limited and bookings must be made in advance!

Location: Samskara health, Beauty and Holistic Centre, 1 Manor Parade, Sheepcote road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 2JN
Date: 12th August 2008
Time: 7pm - 9:30pm
Price: £9


I have a few questions I'd like to ask Abraham. Particularly around why he was willing to kill his son. I doubt they would get answered.


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Unread postPosted: Tue, 12 Aug 2008, 7:36 pm 
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FarSideOfTheMoon wrote:
[I have a few questions I'd like to ask Abraham. Particularly around why he was willing to kill his son. I doubt they would get answered.


An answer to that question according to the Qu'ran :

Quote:
Abraham's Sacrifice

What is the truth about Abraham's Sacrifice? Who was the sacrifice for? Who was the dream that Abraham had from? Before going into the details of this subject, the reader is requested to put aside all his/her preconceptions about this issue and verify the subject purely on the merit of the Quranic evidence. ....


http://www.quran-islam.org/135.html


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Unread postPosted: Tue, 12 Aug 2008, 8:13 pm 
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Hmm, another reason not to believe in God, according to your link kk it says god stopped Joseph committing adultery with the bosses wife. Spoilsport! :shock:
I'm sure there will be plenty of other interpretations that probably disagree with that one.


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Unread postPosted: Tue, 12 Aug 2008, 8:54 pm 
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There are plenty of reasons for not accepting "the God thing" What did that loving father do to HIS son?? :shock:

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Unread postPosted: Tue, 12 Aug 2008, 9:19 pm 
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Kitkat wrote:
FarSideOfTheMoon wrote:
[I have a few questions I'd like to ask Abraham. Particularly around why he was willing to kill his son. I doubt they would get answered.


An answer to that question according to the Qu'ran :

Quote:
Abraham's Sacrifice

What is the truth about Abraham's Sacrifice? Who was the sacrifice for? Who was the dream that Abraham had from? Before going into the details of this subject, the reader is requested to put aside all his/her preconceptions about this issue and verify the subject purely on the merit of the Quranic evidence. ....


http://www.quran-islam.org/135.html


Yes, but I don't want to read it in some pointless old book. I want to hear from the man himself.


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Unread postPosted: Tue, 12 Aug 2008, 9:45 pm 
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FarSideOfTheMoon wrote:
Yes, but I don't want to read it in some pointless old book. I want to hear from the man himself.


Maybe Gary will come trancing around your neck o' the woods sometime, Farside. You'd have your opportunity then.


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Unread postPosted: Tue, 12 Aug 2008, 10:04 pm 
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I doubt it. Not for a while anyway. Looks like he is already making a lucrative income from his part of the world.


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Unread postPosted: Tue, 12 Aug 2008, 10:30 pm 
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Gary is starting to travel further afield.

October 2008

Psychic Development Course, Steyning, 5th October, 2008 - FULLY BOOKED

Mind Body Soul, Cambridge, 11th and 12th October, 2008

Talk in Hinton, Wilkshire, 14th October, 2008

Various workshops and healing in Australia (Including Sydney, Brisbane, Perth and Tasmania) - 15th October - 4th November, 2008


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Unread postPosted: Wed, 13 Aug 2008, 8:10 pm 
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Psychic Development day

Location: Samskara health, Beauty and Holistic Centre, 1 Manor Parade, Sheepcote road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 2JN
Date: 16th August, 2008
Time: 10am - 6pm
Cost: £45

During this Day Gary Mannion will teach about such things as:

Levitation: Using 4 people and 2 fingers you will learn how to remove energy from around someone's head and make them as light as a feather.
Protection: Learn your own way of protecting yourself when you come to do spiritual work.
Pendulums: How to use pendulums to: Answer questions, Dowse, find Crystals, find People, Clear energies
Psycometry: Learn to read the energy from an object, person, place, drawing and interpret that energy into information.
Psychic Readings: Learn to see into the past, present and possible future of a person.
Guide Readings: Like Mediumship except you bring in guides rather then loved ones who have passed over.
Mediumship/Clairvoyance: Learn to be a channel from which spirit can talk to.
Platform Work: Have a go at putting what you have learned to practise in front of a group.
Tasseography/Tea leaves: How to interpret the different symbols within the cup, the placing of the leaves and what it all means.
Trance: Learn to be a vessel for spirit to come through and pass on words of love and wisdom. (We will cover such things as light trance, automatic writing, channelling, full trance)
Séance: Take part in a Physical Séance, past séances have had tables off the ground and passing on valuable information from the world of spirit.
Grounding/Closing down: Learn to make sure you stay grounded when working with spirit and know how to disconnect when you have finished.

Plus much much more!

The course will take place in a cosy, loving environment and numbers are limited to ensure that all participants get the adequate time allocated to their needs.

All levels of experience welcome!


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Unread postPosted: Wed, 13 Aug 2008, 10:14 pm 
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wouldnt have time for a pee :roll:


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Hi Gary,

You posted this here a while back about the filming of a séance you conducted, and which you said you would be putting up on your website. Have you already done so? Or is there somewhere else we can go to see it? Would be really interesting to see.

Quote:
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When we do a table tipping seyance we eliminate the possability of someone moving the table. Also once a table is off the ground it is hard for anyone to be lifting it when everyone around the table couldn't lift it prior to starting. I taught a Psychic Development course over the weekend and we had a documentry team with us and they filmed the seyance. I should get the footage soon and will pop it on the website as soon as I can.

Love and Light Always
Gary Mannion


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Unread postPosted: Thu, 14 Aug 2008, 8:32 pm 
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what other questions would you ask Abraham Farside? Since you dont believe Gary channels him anyway he'd have to come up with something pretty amazing!

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Unread postPosted: Sun, 17 Aug 2008, 9:58 pm 
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why wont someone from his testimonials speak out to support gary?


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This testimonial..

Dr Burkhard: Frankfurt, Germany - In summer 2005, I started to have pains in my right foot. I no longer was able to make longer walks, to play football with my son or to carry heavier objects – all this gave a strong pain.



January 2006 I went to an orthopedist for the first time. He applied a black tar like cream, to be applied for a week, fixed the joint with a bandage and told me to come back after a week. Indeed in this week I felt no pain. After the bandage got removed, the pain came back. I was told to apply Diclofenac to it.



Obviously, this didn’t help. So I went to another orthopedist in summer 2006. He prepared inlets for the shoes and gave me tabs with glucosamine sulfate. When I got the inlets in August 2006, pain was relieved for a few days – just to come back after a week or so. The Tabs couldn’t help either. At this time I got a successful treatment of Fibromyalgia with Acupuncture – this also helped again the foot pain for a day or two, but not longer.



So in autumn 2006 I went to a professor for Orthopaedic. He ordered an X – ray, nothing to see on it, new inlets. Delivered after four weeks, I should come back 6 weeks later. So Christmas 2006 brought a new date with him. Now he made an injection into the joint with a long needle, containing some Cortisone to remove the chronic inflammation. In addition, propose to make 8 treatments with ice to cool down the joint to reduce the inflammation. The first treatment done the same day, the effect of the injection was already gone – new year same pain. At the end of the icing session, he told me that there was nothing to operate, and prepared new inlets. I got them in early spring 2007. When I daily changed between the two new inlets, this indeed reduced the pain slightly. We had met a very competent physiotherapist, and in may I could convince the professor to write a recipe for physiotherapy. This was on “general pain” and “shortening of the Achilles tendon”.



After the fourth session with the physiotherapist he explained me that the recipe could not be true. There was no severe shortening of the Achilles tendon, and the pain was unrelated to that. He asked one of his teachers, and this teacher recommended to me to visit another orthopaedist and gave me an address, half an hours drive away. I got a date for 2 months later, which at least was timed well shortly after the end of the physiotherapy sessions.



So I went to this doctor in September 2007, and there I had a surprising experience. He took more than one hour to carefully study my motions, without load, with controlled load, and came to the conclusion that one tendon, Tibialis Posticus, showed no function and was most probably broken. The next day a MRT was made, the radiologist told me it showed nothing (only a lot of water around a tendon, and yes, when I asked, this was Tibialis Posticus ).

So the picture of motion showed the same tendon as broken that the MRT picture showed as inflamed. Since operations of this are very risky (at least success rates in Germany are low as this doctor told me), we started a treatment with a specialized physiotherapy trying to get the tendon to work again, combined with massage and anti inflammatory moor.



This indeed gave an improvement. The tendon could be brought back to partial (25%?) operation. I could make small walks. Longer walks were still impossible, and walking above rough terrain was a nightmare. In the gym and at home were I trained my foot, we found the worst thing to train the foot was walking on a trampoline. After 50 steps, it was over, the pain unbearable and no force left on the tendon.



So, while there was an improvement, healing still looked like far away – after 3 years and many thousand € spent. I then gave it a try, and had a date with Gary Mannion. He massaged – as it looked to the sceptical part of my mind – the foot for ten minutes. When I stood up, I felt a strong force in the foot and the desire to jump. I did so and could do so. The next days I had terrible muscle pains in all the muscles around the foot up to the hips, but no pain on that tendon. Two weeks after his treatment I made a three hours walk and played a bit of football. Today, five weeks after the treatment, I still am free of that pain. I can walk on the trampoline as long as I want until I feel overall exhausted. Sometimes some muscles on the foot tell me not to forget what I learned in the physiotherapy.



Thanks to Abraham and Gary.


From what i can see Berkhard seems to be a first name for german men is it a surname also ?


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Unread postPosted: Mon, 18 Aug 2008, 10:46 pm 
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A few DR.Berkhard comes up on google.


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has any sceptic changed opinion about gary,better or worse?


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Re: More Mannion [from uksceptics] :lol:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FarSideOfTheMoon
Lynda Jakiro is another complete loony bin


Apparently she also specialises in "Human Conflict". I think we should call the UN and see if she dould be shipped off to Iraq or South Ossetia as part of a "peace-keeping" mission.

Is it just me or does Hertfordshire seem to be woo-central these days? Has a new ley line been built?
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Last edited by dalriada; 10th August 2008 at 11:06 PM.





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farside would spoil all woo parties 8)


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best not invite him unles he can do ? else useful


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Unread postPosted: Thu, 28 Aug 2008, 10:48 pm 
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Hey all sorry I havn't been on here in such a long time. I would like to ask a question to the sceptics especially Julia from Bad psychics why they have a personal vendetta against me!

Love and Light Always
Gary Mannion


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Unread postPosted: Thu, 28 Aug 2008, 10:56 pm 
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me too i would like to see the answer to that gary,
p.s nice to see you again.
any news on your testing dates? how's it going?


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Why Julia Gary?

Must say you are on their hit-list a lot but they dont believe anybody Gary with psychic claims,but why you more than most these last few months? i may be wrong but you are unique claiming Abraham helps you,think thats one reason that got you noticed.


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Hi Gary,im not sure if julia will post here so all we can do is wait if she does and give her that opportunity to answer your question.


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Unread postPosted: Fri, 29 Aug 2008, 1:19 am 
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julia boottifeel name i lik


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what have you been up to gary,must admit i stil confused at times what you do and all that but stil think they been too hard on you


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Unread postPosted: Fri, 29 Aug 2008, 10:23 am 
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garymannion wrote:
Hey all sorry I havn't been on here in such a long time. I would like to ask a question to the sceptics especially Julia from Bad psychics why they have a personal vendetta against me!

Love and Light Always
Gary Mannion


I don't think it's personal. I think you're one of a quite large category of people Bad Psychics seek to investigate.

Hows the plans for testing coming on?


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Unread postPosted: Fri, 29 Aug 2008, 12:21 pm 
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not difficult to find personal insults about gary curious that are personal


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ros wrote:
not difficult to find personal insults about gary curious that are personal


Perhaps the insults are personal but the vendetta isn't, as it's clearly directed at all psychics not just Gary.


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Unread postPosted: Fri, 29 Aug 2008, 3:45 pm 
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Maybe Julia is a pretty name, zingzong, but that doesn't necessarily extend to her nature. More's the pity.

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ros wrote:
Why Julia Gary?


Because of this maybe :sad:

http://www.harrowobserver.co.uk/west-lo ... ic-healer-

Quote:
"psychic healer" controversy
Aug 28 2008 By Tara Brady

Gary Mannion
A row has broken out between a 'psychic surgeon' who believes he once cured a man of cancer and a campaigner who says he is a con man.
Gary Mannion, 20, from South Harrow, says he has been psychic since he was 13 but is furious a website called badpsychics.com ridicules his beliefs.
The spiritual healer, who practices at Gold's Gym in Sheepcote Road, Harrow, has even sought legal advice about the internet site which he believes is defamatory.
He said: "There are sceptics out there which is fair enough but this is a personal attack on me. They have been hounding me for months. They are spreading letters around and have set up a website.
"I have looked into taking legal action and spoken to a lawyer which cost me a couple of hundred pounds. He told me it would cost thousands of pounds to pursue and I wouldn't make my money back.
"Am I not allowed my own beliefs? If a scientist believes in God does that make him a crackpot because he cannot prove without doubt the existence of God?"
Mr Mannion was diagnosed with Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder (ADHD) and put on Ritalin from a young age. He is now a keen promoter of the New Age 'Indigo Movement' which believes children with ADHD represent a higher level of human evolution and may even have paranormal powers.
He said: "Indigo children are right-brain orientated. They are very psychic from a young age and are advanced spiritual beings."
The healer, who has no medical qualifications, also believes a man he once performed psychic surgery on was cured of cancer but was asked to remove this assertion from his website by Trading Standards.
He said: "A guy who was terminally ill with liver cancer came to see me and I performed psychic surgery. Two days later he went for a scan and the cancer had gone. Trading Standards asked me to change a testimonial on my site because they said if I claimed I cured the cancer I would be in breach of the Cancer Act. So I changed it straight away."
But Julia Atkinson, administrator of the badpsychics website, has been investigating Mr Mannion over the past year. She contacted the Observer and said: "I think the people of Harrow need to know about the claims and activities of Mr Mannion. We have gone through them with a fine tooth comb and cannot believe he makes such outrageous claims. The prospect of sick people being tempted to use Gary Mannion's services in order to avoid drugs and surgery horrifies me."
For more information visit www.garymannion.com or www.badpsychics.com


Not personal?


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Curious wrote:
The Big BadPsychics List


Image SWAT !!


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and not 100% they are all frauds tut tut tut

shove them here Image


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and from New Humanist
Monday, 4 February 2008


Quote:
Rationalism needs you: "Psychic surgeon" demonstrating his "ability" in London tonight

We received a rallying call over the weekend from Julia Atkinson at the website Bad Psychics, who is urging all rationalists to attend a demonstration by "psychic surgeon" Gary Mannion in London tonight.

He'll be demonstrating his ability, or power, or whatever you want to call it at 7pm at St James' Church, Piccadilly, in an event being billed as follows:

"Gary Mannion is a 19 year old Indigo Child with amazing psychic and healing gifts. Working with his Spirit Surgeon, Abraham, Gary will demonstrate Psychic Surgery on some willing members of the audience. These operations, which are completely safe and painless, are non-evasive, and require no surgical instruments, or removal of clothing. Whilst working, Gary will talk about how he and Abraham ended up working together, and how Psychic Surgery works."

Now, I'm no expert, but it seems that Abraham is a ghost, and together he and Gary are able to heal people without the need for such inconveniences as drugs or invasive surgery. According to Bad Psychics, he even claims to have healed terminal cancer.

So, in response to this nonsense, Julia at Bad Psychics is calling for any rationalists who might be in the area with an hour to spare to pop in to St James' Church (very odd that it's happening in a church) and cast their sceptical eye over Mannion's "procedure".

Could be interesting.
Posted by Paul Sims at Monday, February 04, 2008


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why not other church sevices then that speak bout there beliefs[priests][[ and they ask for money too]]!
curious you got this one wrong mate this is very personal against gary and big bad julia now sucking up to jon


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and strangest thing of al is the idiots never even tested gary out themselfs before they say its all a sham


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Kirsty,

I get a regular supply of e-mails from Nigerian bankers looking for a person to assist them in claiming a substantial amount of money. Right now at the top of this very page there is a banner ad telling me that as the 999,999th Visitor to this site I've won an Audi A3. The other day a computer with a witheld phone numebr rang my home phone and asked me to press buttons to answer various questions. On hearing that I was a little old lady who owned her own her own home it told me I'd won an all expenses paid cruise. I don't need to test each individual claim to make a pretty reliable assumption that they're a sham. The human ability to apply pattern matching and recognise similar things for what they are saves us all a lot of time and effort in exchange for a comparitively small risk of being mistaken.

In this case Bindeweede had heard of psychic surgeons from the Philapines and their copycats elsewhere and knew that they used slight of hand to create the illusion of removing tumours (actaully chicken guts and the like) from desperate terminal patients. Make no mistake these people have been investigated and are predatory conmen. It seems a fair assumption that Gary's description of himself was close enough to warrent further investigation.

Further investigation was carried out. People attended Gary's demonstration at St James' and noted that he didn't do the chicken guts thing but he did appear to use slight of hand to create the rather poor illusion that his hand was pentrating a body. The lack of chicken guts and the poor quality (so I'm told) of the limited amount of ledgedemain he did use opens the possibility that he may actually believe he has certain powers but the effects he achieves are explained by other means.

And of course maybe he does truly heal people. That would be easy to prove.

However other investigations also exposed certain irregularities. References from medical experts that evaporated after investigation, testimonials that were in breach of the cancer act or irrespinsibly encouraged people to shun evidence based medicine in favour of Gary's talents. Not to mention dubious medical claims like a dogs surviving having their blood transfused with sea water.

In fact the only claims that Gary has made which haven't been proven to be bogus are those that would require further co-operation from Gary before a thorough investigation could take place.

We've still not heard back from Gary regarding a testing protocol which I believe the very well respected Proffessor Chris French from Goldsmiths was prepared to administer and which Bad Psychics were prepared to offer £50,000 to Gary if he passed. Instead were promised a test from Archie Roy. To those in the field this is rather like the Prime Minister opting to be quizzed on Iraq by newsround rather than newsnight. However even that promise has yeilded nothing in the way of results.

So please don't call the skeptics idiots or claim that any deficiency in testing is their fault.

Even in this very thread when people here wanted to know about his work with schools Gary was unable to offer any way of corroberating this claim even though I offered to act as a trusted thrid party so that he could offer the required contact details to someone other than Bad Psychics. He's rejected me as a trusted third party because I post on UK Skeptics and am doubtful about his claims. Why hasn't anyone else stepped forward?

And really all this lack of cooperation is based upon the claim that Bad Psychics' investigations amount to harrassment. I'm still not convinced of that. It's not the traffic wardens fault if you get a parking ticket, it's not the tricket inspectors fault if you get a fine, and it's not Julias fault that her invetigations on behalf of bad psychics turned up these irregularities.


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Just a quick one to say I'm still alive.
I've been totally off the map with work but will be finished in about four weeks and then plan to continue with Chris French, getting the testing together for Gary.

Best wishes to all.

BW


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A good post curious explaining clearly the sceptics side of things.

The way i see it, the 'believers' on here do have their doubts also to Garys claims and the questioning of these claims is not an issue[speak up if im wrong!]it seems to me it has been the ridicule and personal comments such as his spelling that has offended but many do see it as 'hounding' him with asking people to check up on his shows etc.

It is difficult for us to understand sometimes the sceptical way of thinking ,assuming first that Garys claims are ludicrious instead of being in the middle until proven.[no matter how much time/effort /risk its worth]

The sceptics may well be right that Gary is a fraud,deluded or whatever--its the calling of these names prior to testing that offends the most[correct me if you think differently anyone].

The questioning to Garys claims should be done ,i dont think one should just accept what he says and not all questioning to/about Gary has been stupid or offensive,many sceptics questions have been fair.

I,for one,as well as thinking at times the sceptics have got it wrong,Gary has got it wrong too.He has made statements to the public yet when questioned has not answered all of the questions,one being the dog and seawater transfusion,i still want to know about it,i googled a long time trying to find it to no avail.

We have also seen ridicule made out of members of this site inferring we believe everything Gary says[ummm---go back and re-read both threads again!]
Yet rarely does a sceptics admit when they get it wrong or could of done it better sometimes.

Yet they think the same of us :wink:


??????????????????????????????????????


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hello bwm,nice to see you[quickly] again.best wishes.

_________________
what's it all about?


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sorry curious sceps are not idiots then they say idiotic things somtimes and anyway they say lot worse than that how come you lot never moan about jon donnis who openly slags off kensington and believers on here,why you not say that wrong


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Curious is fair.

http://spiritlove.freeforums.org/jon-do ... -t358.html


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The general tone of sceptism is often derogatory against healers and the like,i dont believe in it myself but would be polite and repectful when asking questions .


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sorry curious :sad: just seems no.one cares about hurting our feeling that all :sad:


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rainbows wrote:


Thanks rainbow, but the spat between Jon and me was deleted from that thread along with the information I'd researched from the public domain to encourage people who were threatening legal action against Bad Psychics to actually see what would happen if they tried.

Coincidentally it appears that Gary has talked to a lawyer about his prospects in suing Bad Psycics and found out that its a fools errand. Much as I expected.

http://www.harrowobserver.co.uk/west-lo ... -21625730/

Quote:
"I have looked into taking legal action and spoken to a lawyer which cost me a couple of hundred pounds. He told me it would cost thousands of pounds to pursue and I wouldn't make my money back.


Tip o the hat to Bindeweed from the UK Skeptics forum for bringing this to our attention.

Of course I'd have thought that the objective wouldn't be to recoup legal fees but to get the information taken down. I'm curious (as always :wink: ) what the legal advice as to Gary's chances in that respect might be. Given that the information is all true and newsworthy I doubt he has a case to bring but I'm not a lawyer.

As for the jibes against Gary's quality of written english in his publicity material, I wonder if they might be considered relevant to Gary's claim to represent a more advanced form of humanity - the Indigo child. Also the irony of describing his techniques as "non-evasive" whilst giving excuses for not corroberating some of his more extravagent claims is simply too inviting to escape mention.

As for calling him a liar, its not like they took the a priori possition that he was lying and from that deduced that his statements were untrue. It happened the other way round. They found things that Gary had said which were proven to be fraudulent and from that they called him a liar. Given that this is the raison d'etre of the site in the same way that a ticket inspectors job is to expose fare dodgers or a speed camera exists to detect speeding cars I can't fault them for fullfilling their purpose. I agree that a personal vendeta of harrassment would be wrong. However I just can't see that here. Just public interest journalism from a niche publication.

So niche that I doubt that very many of Gary's potential clients would have read bad psychics if it hadn't been brought to their attention via thier local paper.

Frankly I think that if Gary initiated the Harrow Observer article he just shot himself in the foot via the Steisand Effect


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Curios,

You make some very good points.


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Good posts Curious, saved me having to put finger to keyboard.

I agree with everything said.

This isn't a personal vendetta against Gary. It's because Gary is making fairly serious medical claims that he has been the target of so much attention.

He only needs to bring out the evidence regarding his cancer claim for us to see.

The fact that psychic surgeons the world over have been exposed as conmen is all we need to know about the rationale for this particular career choice. But as I say, we'd just love to see the evidence that it is real, and not just a money making scam.


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Gary,is the man whose terminal cancer you claimed to have healed willing to come forward and be named?

If not,why not? I would want to shout it from the rooftops.

I am trying to be fair to all sides.[alright i fail sometimes :? and get it wrong]but i'm trying harder..


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kirsty wrote:
sorry curious :sad: just seems no.one cares about hurting our feeling that all :sad:


Sadly that's not just Skeptics vs Gary or even Skeptics vs Believers. I think there's plenty of room for improvement in that respect across all of society. Even some Believers vs Skeptics at times. Certainly I've got no claim to perfection in that regard.

But if you could put yourself in the skeptics position for just a moment. I know you're empathic enough to do a good job of this. Imagine you believe as a skeptic does that psychic powers are all bunk. Try it. What does it feel like? Imagine that you'd never seen any convincing evidence. Allow all those personal experiences of yours to slip queitly to the back of your mind and disappear for now. Intead replace them with memories of a frustrated search for evidence always coming up short. This gives you a different view of the spiritual world. You're still someone who wants to believe, probably did believe when you were younger but as your investigations become more thorough you become convinced of alternative explantions for all the stories you've heard and as the the need to discount such alternative explanations pushed up your standards for evidence you still think that real psychic powers would satisfy them. Imagine that all your efforts to find psychics who'd cooperate with the sort of test that should prove their powers conclusively were met with obstruction and failure. Famous high profile psychics earning money off the back of claims of high degres of reliabiity turn down big cash sums to prove themselves in a controlled test that they should be able to pass. You'd certainly be convinced that these obsturctive people knew they had something to hide and the failures were mistaken. Imagine that eventually your only doubts were whether an individual who claimed psychic powers was simply mistaken or being deliberately fraudulent. By temporarily suppressing your own nature enough to do imagine all this you can see from a skeptics point of view.

How does this skeptic feel about someone who's fraudulently taking money from vulnerable people in your community in return for a cheap illusion and harmful sham medical advice?

You may aspire (as I do hope to) to maintain standards of civil decency for their own sake. But does such a person actually deserve it? Will you cry any tears if someone else is less civil in taking them to task? I don't think so.

Now snap back to your own experiences and perspective. A skeptic who insults you for being more accepting of psychic claims than they are is still an arrogent [bleep]. I have to agree there are some like that, but I don't think thats intrinsic to skepticism. There's arrogant tossers in all walks of life. Skepticism's only crime in this regard is in not being immune to an endemic character flaw.

You can empathise with Gary being the recipient of a skeptic attack because no doubt you've experienced it too. In your case I'm sure you didn't deserve it but don't let that push you into over-empathizing with Gary and presuming he didn't deserve it either. If he's mitaken then he's doing real harm to your community and a little tough love may be called for. If he's fraudulent then he probably deserves it.


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i try harder to curious to understand it, not easy,i do see what you say but what if gary is right about the healing,how can i say he a fake when i dont know he is,so i just cant say he is when i dont know.not saying i believe it all but dont feel right to call him fake healer until we have evidence,isnt that what you lot want too,the evidence?


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The problem here is that it's almost completely impossible to prove that someone is a "fake healer". All you can do is subject their claims to careful scrutiny and see if they bear up.

For example, when we test Gary, if he fails the test, this will not be proof that he's a fake. It will be evidence that supports the idea that his abilities are not real, but ultimately it will be for individual people ti decide for themselves.

If he passes the test, this will be very strong evidence indeed to support his claims. If that happens, I would certainly hope that people become more open minded.

But it is wrong to say that in this case, the sensible position is 50/50 right in the middle until there's proof either way.
This is because Gary's claims contradict pretty much all the knowledge we have accumulated over the centuries in physics, chemistry, biology, immunology, physiology, and many other areas.

If he is right, then they are ALL wrong. In this light, can you see how it is actually more sensible to be initially skeptical of his claims?

Another way of looking at this (and Curious touched on this before) is to compare psychic surgeons to TV evangelists.

There are guys in the US who make a fortune out of getting poor and desperate people to send them money in return for empty promises that their donations will sow seeds of prayer and change their fortunes and health problems. These guys are basically crooks who operate just within the law because of the religious tolerance demand by our culture.

When a new one comes along spouting the same old schpiel as all the others, it is reasonable to conclude that they are very probably a fake too.

Psychic surgery is similar in that its originators in the Philippines and Brazil have been shown to be fraudulent, employing conjuring techniques to produce their "results". No psychic surgeon has ever succeeded in properly controlled tests and many are definitely hucksters.

When a new one comes along, they may well be genuine, but like the US faith healers, it is reasonable to assume otherwise until good evidence is presented.

Having said that, I'm sure that Gary genuinely believes his claims.


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Doesn't the fact that he's been caught lying in some of his statements already suggest we should be careful taking anything he claims at face value though kirsty?


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kirsty wrote:
i try harder to curious to understand it, not easy,i do see what you say but what if gary is right about the healing,how can i say he a fake when i dont know he is,so i just cant say he is when i dont know.not saying i believe it all but dont feel right to call him fake healer until we have evidence,isnt that what you lot want too,the evidence?


Yes we want evidence and if Gary is genuine then there should be no problem. If Gary is not genuine, no amount of evidence will ever prove that 100%. Even if my evil twin goes out tommorrw armed with a knowledge of how fake psychic surgeons operate and sets himself up to fleece vulnerable people even he will never know for certain that he doesn't have some supernatural healing power that he's unconciously engaging whilst he deliebrately cons people. Even if extensive studies on his results demonstrate that he's statistically the same as no treatment whatsoever we couldn't say for certain that he was just unlucky and that those in the cohort of people he treated would have fared far worse without treatment than statistics would presume.

What we can do is assess liklihoods. Right now my fiance is on the way to pick up our car which we left outside a friends house last night. We pressume that the car is there but we don't know for certain. It may have been stolen or even ceased to exist. We know the probabilities of car thefts and can put an upper bound on the probability that cars can cease to exsit despite such a phenomenon never having been reported before. We therefore make an assessment of the probability that the car is there and that probility being overwhelmingly high, act in the same way as if we believed it with absolute certainty.

It's not like skeptics haven't done their level best to tet Gary's claims, but they can only work with the information they have. This information tells skeptics that Gary's reported results are consistent with exagerated claims (and we know at least some of his claims are exagerated) related to the placebo effect (which shouldn't be underestimated) and reporting bias (to which we're all vulnerable)

Really I do accept the possibility that Gary might have genuine healing powers. However I also accept a similar level of probability that Gary doesn't even exist and the whole thing is an elaborate hoax, I've met BWM and Chris French so I'm far more certain that they exist but they could be lying about having met Gary, for kicks and giggles.

Both are technically possible, just not very plausible. There a literally an infinite number of what-ifs. It'd be impossible to consider them all. What if Gary is an ancient all powerful deamon who disguises himslef as a human psychic healer in order to trade short term healing effects for an undetectable soul sapping supernatural disease. What if Gary is an alien utilising technology so far beyond our comprehnsion as to be indistinguishable from magic. What if I'm the second coming of Jesus christ and your questioning of these statements is putting your imortal sould in jeopody.

Instead we have to focus on what we can determine is likley. After limited investigation into Gary's claims and comparison with known frauds (like John of God who Gary commends) we've no particular reason to believe that he actually heals people with anything other than the placebo effect. We've every reason to believe that people are visiting Gary when they should be reaping the benefits of evidence based medicine. The skeptic will act acordingly.

The only difference between you and the skeptic is that you're already convinced that certain forms of supernatural healing are possible. That's what makes the claims of a proven lair (sorry Gary) seem at least plausible. However from the skeptics point of view this possibility is not more likly than all the other rediculous scenarios I've outlined above.


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Curious wrote:
What we can do is assess liklihoods. Right now my fiance is on the way to pick up our car which we left outside a friends house last night. We pressume that the car is there but we don't know for certain. It may have been stolen or even ceased to exist. We know the probabilities of car thefts and can put an upper bound on the probability that cars can cease to exsit despite such a phenomenon never having been reported before. We therefore make an assessment of the probability that the car is there and that probility being overwhelmingly high, act in the same way as if we believed it with absolute certainty.


:lol: You are so funny, Curious. What for most would be a simple trip from A to B and back to A, for you is a journey fraught with probabilities, possibilities, likelihoods and uncertainties. If your fiancé's mind works in the same way as yours she'd be a nervous wreck by the time she reaches the car! Are you sitting there now working out the probabilities and possibilities of her returning in one piece? :lol:


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how had john of god proven to be fraud?


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Gary said he will carry on even if he fails the test,one reason being abraham may not perform on the day,how would this happen if this was true because im sure abraham would want to pass and the world to know healing is possible.


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Would anybody here visit Gary for a healing session.


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Unread postPosted: Sun, 31 Aug 2008, 4:37 pm 
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i would , to see for myself


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Unread postPosted: Mon, 01 Sep 2008, 10:35 pm 
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If i needed to i would and if i was cured of something i wouldnt begrude paying.


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Unread postPosted: Tue, 02 Sep 2008, 1:40 am 
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bwm you said if gary fails the test it will not prove he is a fake yet i put money on it a number of people WILL say he is a fake if he fails.What do you think ?


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Unread postPosted: Tue, 02 Sep 2008, 10:42 am 
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Kitkat wrote:
Curious wrote:
What we can do is assess liklihoods. Right now my fiance is on the way to pick up our car which we left outside a friends house last night. We pressume that the car is there but we don't know for certain. It may have been stolen or even ceased to exist. We know the probabilities of car thefts and can put an upper bound on the probability that cars can cease to exsit despite such a phenomenon never having been reported before. We therefore make an assessment of the probability that the car is there and that probility being overwhelmingly high, act in the same way as if we believed it with absolute certainty.


:lol: You are so funny, Curious. What for most would be a simple trip from A to B and back to A, for you is a journey fraught with probabilities, possibilities, likelihoods and uncertainties. If your fiancé's mind works in the same way as yours she'd be a nervous wreck by the time she reaches the car! Are you sitting there now working out the probabilities and possibilities of her returning in one piece? :lol:


That would be be silly. However that's the exact opposite of my point. Like the possibility that Gary is a genuine miracle worker, the possibility that the car would vanish is pretty insignificant and not worth worrying about. Whislt I can't say for certain that it'll never happen, it's a bridge we can cross if we come to it.

Actually there is a difference between Gary's claim and all those other fantasitic implausible scenarios I mentioned. Nobody is claiming that those other scenarios are true. Gary is claiming that he's a miracle worker and so he's the one we should look to for proof. After all if he hadn't made the claim there'd be no reason to even consider that he had the ability to call forth healing spirits.


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Unread postPosted: Tue, 02 Sep 2008, 10:53 pm 
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kirsty wrote:
how had john of god proven to be fraud?


kirsty,

here is something you might find interesting.
Quote:
John of God
João Teixeira de Faria, who calls himself "John of God," has been one of the more popular faith healers in Brazil for the past 35 years. Teixeira de Faria claims that he channels more than thirty "doctor entities" (including Dr. Fritz). He is big business for tour operators around the world, including Emma Bragdon, who has a Ph.D. in Transpersonal Psychology. Bob & Diana of Watsonville, California, can also be your guides. If you are coming from England, contact Rupert Drew. However, a website in New Zealand warned:

A recent TV documentary (60 minutes) portrayed him in a very negative light, although showing video of him scraping a persons eyeball with a scalpel, and putting scissors up a person's nose, they said these were easy tricks to perform....Yet, others have reported to me seeing his healings first-hand. I suggest you verify his authenticity before departing, as a trip to Brazil can be quite expensive!



Also,

Quote:
I know that nobody is likely to do any follow-ups on the desperate patients who seek a miracle from John. I know that there will be plenty of people willing to provide testimonials to their own and other miraculous cures. I know John doesn't keep records, but even if he did, he and his staff are not interested in scientific documentation. I know John doesn't charge a fee for his "services," but he prescribes herbs to everybody he sees (about 1,500-2,000 people a week) and his clinic sells the herbs. According to Quinones, "the clinic does pull in something like $400,000 a year from the sale of herbs." I know from watching the video of John at work that he places his hands on the breasts of his female patients regardless of what ails them.




http://www.skepdic.com/johnofgod.html


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Unread postPosted: Wed, 03 Sep 2008, 1:00 am 
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1 .5-2 thousand people a week! Holy moly!

Im low on herbs and breast massages though. 8)


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kirsty,

does this ring any bells?

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Teixeira de Faria claims that he channels more than thirty "doctor entities" (including Dr. Fritz).


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Unread postPosted: Wed, 03 Sep 2008, 11:52 am 
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yes but just cos gary believe in him dont mean he is a fake too,not proven remember. :wink:
get your point but means little i think.


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Unread postPosted: Wed, 03 Sep 2008, 8:50 pm 
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I personally think it's where Gary, ahem, gets his inspiration from.


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Unread postPosted: Wed, 03 Sep 2008, 9:31 pm 
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yes,gary has said he admires John Of God.At the end of the day,there is plenty of information around on Gary now to help people make their minds up and they have the choice to test him for themselves with a visit.


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Unread postPosted: Wed, 03 Sep 2008, 9:55 pm 
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But where does John of God get his inspiration from?

Apparently, there's a whole new town built up around him - to cater for the continual string of visitors hoping for healing. Special Healing Package hols arranged there from all over the world. Wheelchairs and beds on wheels all over the place. Hotels and travel companies doing great business.


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Unread postPosted: Wed, 03 Sep 2008, 10:10 pm 
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Yes, and not one single case that I am aware of where he has been proven to effect a cure.

It's a similar phenomenon to Lourdes, thousands of visitors desperate for a cure, but no evidence of large scale healing taking place.

It's pretty damning when you look at it that way.


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Yes it is but there are other ways too,there will be people like Garys clients who believe they have been cured,same as visitors to John of God and Lourdes,[as you know of course ] i wish these people who say they have been cured would come forward with evidence ,whoever their healer may be.
It makes for uncomfortable reading to know people will spend a lot of money for the hope of a cure ,some will become riddled in debt all for nothing,not to mention what it can do to their minds.I hope one day the healing industry changes.


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But do we take away peoples choice to go?


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Unread postPosted: Thu, 04 Sep 2008, 7:32 am 
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No, but you educate them so that they know what is really happening.


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FarSideOfTheMoon wrote:
Yes, and not one single case that I am aware of where he has been proven to effect a cure.

It's a similar phenomenon to Lourdes, thousands of visitors desperate for a cure, but no evidence of large scale healing taking place.

It's pretty damning when you look at it that way.


How do you know that, FS? (no evidence of healing?) When you say 'large scale', what are you expecting there - a miracle? Stories of cures/miracles from Lourdes are plentiful, worldwide.

Place called Knock, in Ireland - similar story to Lourdes. My mother regained her sight on a visit to Knock (docs and hospitals had given up hope she would ever be able to see again) - but that's another story for another time ...


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We educate people to all possibilities and one of those possibilities is healing may be real.

To tell people it does not exist is imposing a falsehood on people,you can tell them it hasnt been scientifiacally proven,you can tell them all about the frauds,you can tell them it seems highly unlikely on the evidence we have so far but the fact still remains it may be proven someday by someone. A highly unlikely scenario for so many i appreciate.

I would welcome a law that bans people from charging unless significantly proven.


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Gary,what do you say about the sceptics claiming you have lied,one instance being you worked at the house of commons,did you work at the house of commons ,honestly ?


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Knock shrine is new to me.I would like to hear that story kk.

http://www.knock-shrine.ie/

_________________
what's it all about?


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Here's a better story about Knock.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L2fAIgcT6I[/youtube]



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I cant get my head round miracles.One and a half million visitors per year to Knock,how many actually going hoping for a cure for themselves or to say a prayer for someone else,we dont know.How many people hoping for a miracle but didnt get one? If,what i'm thinking- most of them-lets leave a few in for arguments sake -does that make Knock a healing place?Not to me.Even for those people who had their miracle,would it have been the place when so many didnt get theirs.

Could the power of one's own mind into believing a miracle can happen actually create one?


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Unread postPosted: Thu, 04 Sep 2008, 4:42 pm 
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Do you say no to sceptics ?

Legal Disclaimer

Meaningful changes in health conditions have been experienced amongst the clients whom Gary has treated. However, in compliance with the relevant English legislation on medical practice, Gary does not claim to be able to cure health conditions.


Contact Details

Gary’s philosophy is that through his work he would like to show the world what we as humans are capable of. He is happy for anyone with a genuine interest to attend his presentations and is happy to give treatments to anybody with an open mind.


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Unread postPosted: Thu, 04 Sep 2008, 6:56 pm 
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Kitkat wrote:
FarSideOfTheMoon wrote:
Yes, and not one single case that I am aware of where he has been proven to effect a cure.

It's a similar phenomenon to Lourdes, thousands of visitors desperate for a cure, but no evidence of large scale healing taking place.

It's pretty damning when you look at it that way.


How do you know that, FS? (no evidence of healing?) When you say 'large scale', what are you expecting there - a miracle? Stories of cures/miracles from Lourdes are plentiful, worldwide.

Place called Knock, in Ireland - similar story to Lourdes. My mother regained her sight on a visit to Knock (docs and hospitals had given up hope she would ever be able to see again) - but that's another story for another time ...


Where are these miracles and cures then? I don't know what you've been reading about Lourdes, this should put it into perspective. The Catholic church only claims 67 sketchy miracles out of the millions of visitors.

http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/Lourdes.html

Quote:
Lourdes It is the town of Lourdes, France, that has attained the strongest international reputation for miracles of healing. This acclaim is the result of a very successful commercial venture that began with a story about Bernadette Soubirous (1844-1879), an ignorant peasant girl who said she had a visitation there from “a lady” in 1858.
A shrine was established in 1876 to which some five million visitors a year now flock, occupying four hundred hotels built for them. The public relations people who sell Lourdes as a business claim that there are about thirty thousand healings a year, but church authorities deny that figure, cautioning that less than a hundred claims have been properly documented since the founding of the shrine, and the church has as of this date accepted only sixty-four as miracles, from the millions of cures claimed over the years.
Whether these sixty-four were simply remissions of various kinds or perhaps recoveries brought about by orthodox medical attention, one cannot know, since the records are so sketchy. In several cases, we have no evidence that even the ailments were real. In the absence of proof that the attendance of the afflicted at the shrine was the one element responsible for the termination of the ailment, common sense, as well as the simple principle of parsimony, would require one to strongly doubt the miraculous nature of these events.
Bathing in the mineral springs of Lourdes and drinking of the spring water have been confused with the healing stories. The church has never made any claim that the spring water from the Lourdes grotto is curative in any way, yet every year the souvenir shops sell thousands of gallons to the faithful in tiny vials, as amulets. Those who attend Lourdes in person have consumed millions of gallons more. It is amazing that more worshipers have not contracted diseases from that practice. Europeans are prone to accept the medicinal value of almost any natural spring water——especially if it smells bad. They cannot resist drinking from and washing in the Lourdes spring.


http://www.skepdic.com/lourdes.html

Quote:
In 1858, at a grotto by the river Gave near Lourdes, France, a 14-year-old peasant named Bernadette Soubirous claimed that the Virgin Mary, identifying herself as "the Immaculate Conception," appeared to her some 18 times.* You'd think such a great number of visitations would have provided an opportunity to channel a short theological treatise of some significance. It seems, however, that the main message (in the Basque tongue, no less) the alleged "mother of God" gave to the girl was: "Pray and do penance for the conversion of the world." Oh, and take a drink of the spring water.

To its eternal discredit, the Roman Catholic Church investigated Soubirous's claims for four years before approving devotion to Our Lady of Lourdes. Since then, the Church has validated 67 miracles at Lourdes* (of the thousands that have been reported*) and canonized the peasant girl.* (Her body, which is on display, is alleged to be incorruptible, but the face and hands, which look so lifelike, are made of wax.) It is estimated that in recent years about 5 million pilgrims a year visit the shrine at Lourdes. Over the past 150 years, some 200 million people have made the pilgrimage.* For those who care, that's a success rate of .0000335% or 1 out of every 3 million. Furthermore, since 1947 anyone claiming a miraculous cure has to go before a medical board. "From 1947 to 1990, only 1,000 cures were claimed and only 56 were recognized in that time, averaging 1.3 cures a year, against 57 a year before 1914."* Since 1978, there have been only four recognized cures.* So, if you're thinking of going to Lourdes for a miracle cure, the odds are not very high in your favor. Pilgrims might find some consolation in a British study that tested miracle-seekers at regular intervals for a year after they visited Lourdes and found that they were significantly less anxious and depressed.* Who wouldn't be cheered up by a trip to southern France and by being surrounded by people much worse off than yourself?

Of all the cures alleged to have occurred at Lourdes, however, none have involved dramatic, unambiguous events like the growing back of a severed limb. Belgian philosopher Etienne Vermeersch likened this fact to the lack of clear, unambiguous data in support of the existence of Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster. He also claimed that there have probably been significantly more fatal accidents suffered by pilgrims on their way to or from Lourdes than there have been cures.

The fact that the stories of miracles found in the scriptures of various religions involve cases that could be explained naturalistically (raising the dead or curing cancer...well, he wasn't really dead or she didn't really have cancer) or dismissed as mythological (born of a virgin, resurrected into heaven, survived three days under water) led Vermeersch to coin the expression "Lourdes effect" to describe this curious lack of a single unambiguous miracle by all the alleged miracle workers who have dazzled crowds for millennia. Why do supernatural powers resist manifesting themselves in a clear way? It's certainly not a matter of difficulty.


Lourdes has a population of around 15,000. To accommodate the 5 million pilgrims who descend on the town each year, there are some 270 hotels. Only Paris has more hotels in France. Needless to say, business is good. For those who can't make the trip, many enterprising folks will bring Lourdes to you. They sell water from the spring. The water is believed to have healing properties. It certainly generates a lot of hope and revenue thanks to the continuing abundance of wishful and magical thinking among the afflicted. But the odds of anyone being cured of anything except thirst by this water are less than favorable.



I've also driven through Knock, and landed in a plane there. It's a horrible little town if you ask me. They are benefiting from it the same way Lourdes does, they have an interest in perpetuating the myth.

I'm not disputing your mother regained her eyesight, but do you really think it was because she visited Knock?


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I think Rainbows hit the nail on the head there with her question
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Could the power of one's own mind into believing a miracle can happen actually create one?

'Faith' healing.


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Imaginary healing?

Many conditions heal themselves. That's an undisputable fact.

Faith is not a virtue to be celebrated - it's an inability or a refusal to challenge one's beliefs against reality.

If you believe something happened due to 'faith' when there is another rational reason, that's just wishful thinking.


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Farside, tbh, I don't really know what happened there. All I know is my dad was 'dragged' there very much against his will. I had him on the phone (to me in England) feeling very sorry for himself, telling me about the nightmare of this place. Three whole days, without a pub, having to go to Mass 3 times day (!) It was at one of these Masses (a High Mass) on the second day there that my mum said to him that she could see the priest, blurry, but could make out the shapes, three of them, and could see that one had red hair.
The next time I got a call from him I thought first it was one of those 'heavy breather' calls; he was so emotional he just couldn't speak. By the time they got back home my mother's sight was back to "normal".


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FarSideOfTheMoon wrote:
Imaginary healing?

Many conditions heal themselves. That's an undisputable fact.

Faith is not a virtue to be celebrated - it's an inability or a refusal to challenge one's beliefs against reality.

If you believe something happened due to 'faith' when there is another rational reason, that's just wishful thinking.



What if there is no rational explanation?I said before i had a healer work on my back and minutes later it disappeared after weeks of pain.Could well be a coincidence i accept but what if..just what if it was the healer? Why should i rule it out?

You judge people too much.If people want to celebrate faith leave them be.


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmGq0i3A4zc



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rainbows wrote:
Gary,is the man whose terminal cancer you claimed to have healed willing to come forward and be named?

If not,why not? I would want to shout it from the rooftops.

I am trying to be fair to all sides.[alright i fail sometimes :? and get it wrong]but i'm trying harder..


rainbows,

you and some other member have asked valid questions about gary'sclaims. But he has not answered them.


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